Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - Picnic at Spa

1C4D3776-30F6-18DB-5006-41CDA75DF040 Atlas F1 Bulletin Board - Picnic at Spa

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Posted by Hans Etzrodt on 31-Aug-04 14:58:

Back in 1925, during the 805 km Grand Prix d'Europe, held at Spa on June 28, all racing cars retired except two. These two had been Alfa Romeos driven by Giuseppe Campari and Antonio Ascari (famous father of the 1952 & 53 world champion Alberto). This race was also the first in Europe to count towards the first World Championship, which happened 1925, not 1950. But that’s another story.

For starters, only a seven-car field assembled on a grid after Sunbeam, Guyot, Mathis and Diatto had scratched. There were four light-blue12-cylinder supercharged Delage 2LCV grand prix cars from France against three bright red, hot racers; Italian 8-cylinder, supercharged P2 Alfa Romeos. Two of the Alfas went into the lead right away. It did not take long for the race to develop into a deplorable and monotonous affair since cars dropped out fairly early. Within the first seven laps, three Delages had retired, followed by Brilli-Peri on lap 27 when his Alfa broke a spring. At half distance only three cars remained in the race but shortly thereafter, on lap 34, Albert Divo retired the last Delage. That left just the two Alfas of Ascari and Campari to complete the last third of the 54-laps race.

On lap 40, both Alfas, the only cars then running, were again called into the pits for their regular stops, Ascari’s time was then 4h55m18s versus Campari with 5h12m54s. This particular pit stop has often been described and over the years became a popular anecdote, based on unreliable secondary source information.

Here the very first version I could find in a booklet, published in 1967: "During the race the Alfa Romeo drivers stopped for a five-minute impromptu meal round a table whilst their cars were washed and polished–Jano’s [designer & team manager] method of getting his own back on the Belgian crowds, who were jeering at the Italians for their easy victory."
From a book, published in 1980: "So large did the gap grow between the rival marques that Jano brought his drivers in for leisurely refreshments while the cars stood silent at the pits. After this insolent demonstration of their superiority, Ascari and Campari resumed the race, being the sole finishers..."
From a 1982 book: "It was during this race that the legendary incident took place, when Ascari and Campari were so far ahead that Jano invited them into the pit at a refueling stop for an impromptu five-minute meal round a table, whilst their cars stood by being cleaned and polished. This was Jano’s reply to the Belgian crowd, who were rather foolishly demonstrating against the Italians because they were gaining such an easy victory."
From a 1986 book: "A famous story is told about this race. The spectators were, understandably, not particularly thrilled by the spectacle of two red Alfas circulating alone on the long track, and starting booing the Alfa team. Apparently in response to this, the Alfa team manager set out some food on the pit-corner and the drivers stopped, enjoyed a relaxed meal, and then continued with the race."
In a book, I just acquired last week, published in 2000, the story goes like this: "As a gesture of confidence in the team, during the race Jano had a table laid on the track in front of the Alfa Romeo pit and ate his lunch in full view of the jeering and unappreciative crowd, who understandably found the demonstration of Alfa Romeo supremacy somewhat boring. During their refueling stops Ascari and Campari were invited to join him for a hasty snack; presumably Nicola Romeo [owner & boss], who attended the race and had probably paid for the meal anyway, made up the party."

Now:
Tony Kaye had once given me a rather interesting and detailed one-page report, titled, "How I won the Grand Prix d'Europe", by Antonio Ascari and dated August 1925. But there is no mention of the pit stop on lap 40 or a 'picnic' like break. The same goes for contemporary reports out of the 1925 AUTOMOBIL-REVUE, Allgemeine Automobil-Zeitung (Wien) and MOTOR und SPORT. No picnic story! At one time I had asked Alessandro Silva and he told me:
Truth is that Canestrini himself wrote in the Gazzetta dello Sport on Monday after the race: "After that, any trace of resistance by the adversaries had disappeared, our drivers would stop at the pits simultaneously on the 40th lap, to get a refreshment and tidy up the cars. Ascari also changes the four tires. This had taken five minutes. The public is extremely cold, unconcerned." 27 years later in Canestrini's memoirs, "Uomini e Motori", 1957, there appears the complete story with picnic table and carwash.

Peter Hull was the first to spread this yarn. Thereafter this misrepresentation appeared in almost every book or article, which mentioned this 1925 race. Sounds to me like some Neubauer yarn. Are there any pictures to prove that such a picnic had taken place?
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Posted by bigears on 31-Aug-04 17:19:

I did a quick Google for the images you requested.

I found this

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/...ri_spa_1925.jpg

Source:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/...tonioascari.htm

So the person on Ascari's left could be holding a traditional picnic rug/tablecloth?

I got this book "Motor Racing's Strangest Races" by Geoff Tibballs and it did mention about the race and the picnic in the pitlane.
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A pilgrimage to the Birmingham Superprix track

Posted by Vitesse2 on 31-Aug-04 18:56:

Bigears: the same scene is pictured from a different angle in William Court's "Power and Glory". It is clearly taken after the race. And I'm afraid I wouldn't put too much money on Mr Tibballs having done any original research in primary sources .... in fact I wouldn't put any money on it!

Hans: I don't have time to dig out the Motor and Autocar reports, which I'm sure I copied as part of the 1925 project, but I don't remember this being mentioned.

As I'm sure you're aware, this story isn't in Court's book (or in his Grand Prix Requiem) - I'd have thought it would have appealed to him if it was true!

It is in Delsaux' Belgian GP book though!
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Good friends we have,
Oh, good friends we have lost
Along the way
In this great future,
You can't forget your past

Bob Marley

Posted by Don Capps on 31-Aug-04 20:47:

Ah, I always love it when Hans begins to ask questions and ponder something.....

The five minutes in question have to also be placed in the context of a contemporary pit stop. It often required literally several minutes to service a car during a pit stop, changing the tires, dumping in the fuel, doing all the other things necessary to keep the car going.

Also, I don't think five minutes is a period of time in which one can be said to eat lunch at one's "leisure."

It would seem that Han's point that this is something of a yarn is to be well-taken given the mounting evidence.

Now, to correct the distorted record..... Hmmmm, any chance Motor Sport might be interested?
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Posted by GIGLEUX on 01-Sep-04 01:22:

How many pit stops during the 1925 Grand Prix d'Europe? Here it seems the pic-nic was for the cars!

Here Ascari...

and here Brilli-Peri

In the race report in La Vie Automobile July 15th 1925, not a single word about incidents and/or pic-nic.
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Jean-Maurice GIGLEUX

Posted by Don Capps on 01-Sep-04 01:24:

Ah, Jean-Maurice to the rescue.....
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I am not a number.

Posted by Hans Etzrodt on 01-Sep-04 02:09:

According to plan, Campari stopped on lap 20 to take on water, oil and fuel and change also both rear wheels, which took two minutes and six seconds. Shortly thereafter Ascari stopped also at the pits after he had established a new lap record of 6m52s at an average speed of 130.18 km/h. I could find no information about Brilli-Peri's pit stop, which must have happened around the same time. He drove the slower version of the P2, the unmodified 1924 car.

The pictures from Jean-Maurice might be about the first pit stop. One would think that in the 1925 race photographers would have concentrated their efforts on the last surviving cars, namely the two Alfas. Therefore some pictures should exist about this 'picnic'. ...in case it really took place.
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Posted by Hans Etzrodt on 01-Sep-04 02:28:

Bigears - the picture you refer to was taken after Ascari had completed the race. The man standing to his left is his famous mechanic, Giulio Ramponi, who accompanied Ascari as riding mechanic in his 1924 races but in 1925 riding mechanics were no longer allowed. However, the empty mechanic's seat had to remain and a rear view mirror needed to be added.
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what we know is so much smaller .......
....... than what we don't know

Posted by bigears on 01-Sep-04 02:35:

Ah I see now!

Thank you for the explantation about the photograph I found for you.
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A pilgrimage to the Birmingham Superprix track

Posted by Hans Etzrodt on 01-Sep-04 02:49:

I know of 25 different pictures from this particular race. There are a few very similar to the one you have shared with us. Thank you all for the pics. They are so rare these days.
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what we know is so much smaller .......
....... than what we don't know

Posted by D-Type on 01-Sep-04 03:52:

quote:
Originally posted by GIGLEUX
How many pit stops during the 1925 Grand Prix d'Europe? Here it seems the pic-nic was for the cars!

Here Ascari...

I find the detail in these photos fascinating and puzzling. Those look like quick lift racing jacks leaning against the pit counter but that's atrolley jack under the front of the car.
Or am I mistaken?
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Posted by GIGLEUX on 01-Sep-04 05:55:

For me the episode of the pinic is story and not history!
Nothing in the contemporary sources Hans and me have. I have a dozen of pictures of the Alfas and same number of the Delages competing in the Grand Prix d'Europe but nothing about the picnic; be sure it had occured it would have been pictured and published.
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Jean-Maurice GIGLEUX

Posted by Hans Etzrodt on 01-Sep-04 09:23:

quote:
Originally posted by GIGLEUX
...be sure it had occured it would have been pictured and published.

Amen!
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what we know is so much smaller .......
....... than what we don't know

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